As she reads Simone de Beauvoir in her American circumstance

I got a response to my post about feminism (A Long Night's Journey Into Day), and since I didn't write anything yesterday (because I was waaaay to busy reading "Bitch" and arguing with someone about the American political system and how [im]possible it is to be adequately informed in this system; I believe it's completely possible, but N E Way), I thought I'd share this discussion and see if it raises any more discussion, or helps solidify the conclusion.

My friend Tom wrote this:

"So I was thinking about this post the other day, and I thought, what the hell, here's a can of worms to open...

At the risk of TMIing you, an important thing I've learned over the past few years is that women can be assertive and powerful, and yet find submissive roles to be extremely hot. Romance novels don't have servant girls for nothin'. So, while it is important that women be viewed as people, with assertiveness and aggressiveness and independence, messages meant to have some sexy may be enhanced for a significant proportion of men and women by submissiveness. It's one of the really interesting things about changing gender roles: some sensitive men and assertive women are realizing that the unfair power inequalities that they fight the good fight against are, often to their initial dismay, a total turn-on.

There's a completely different discussion to be had on when sexual messages in advertising are okay. (In clothing ads it seems like it will frequently be the entire point.) And obviously, being on the yielding end of the power dynamic is not the only way women can be sexual. But submissivity is not identical to subjugation."

And I, without thinking too much and not having enough coffee yet, wrote this in response:

"I draw a distinction between voluntarily being submissive and being submissive because of a power dynamic. Anything that is a "traditional gender role" can be done with a feminist spin if a woman is educated, assertive about what she wants, and truly wants to do that. I don't even go into power dynamics within relationships (which is what I think the territory you're discussing goes into). When it comes to that, I'd prefer not to be making decisions in relationships. And I like baking cupcakes. It's not anti-feminist if it's what someone actually, truly (and armed with complete knowledge of options) wants. But women, I feel, can get subjugated so much that it becomes easier to then opt to be submissive so as not to raise the ire of patriarchs.

I read another 150 pages of "Bitch" last night, and I think what I can take from it is that sometimes women lack options due to multiple factors (bad parenting, low socio-economic status, depression), and make bad decisions because it's just easier than going after what they want, because they don't know what they really want and how to articulate it. Women are constantly told to suppress their urges for fear of being called a slut, and suppress their ambition for fear of being called a bitch. Men aren't, and are called studs. So while a woman may genuinely "like" being submissive now, I have to question what situation she has come from and how she was socialized, and if that had any bearing on her preferences.

I don't know enough about all of this yet. This is still definitely a learning process, and I expect I'll be hitting the Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir this summer, and see if I can better articulate what I think I'm trying to say."

Aside from that annoying penchant for starting sentences/paragraphs with "I," what do you think? Are we necessarily talking about the same type of "submissiveness?"

When we were doing the "Bitch" debate at In Other Words last week, I made the argument that if you're trying to fight feminist battles in an operating room by banning cosmetic surgery, you're entering the game much too late. You have to analyze where those social ills come from, and by the time a woman is talking about getting bags of saline inserted into her chest, it's too late to solve whatever feminist problem brought her there. Telling her to "love her body" is not going to resolve the issues. Women who don't feel good about themselves and resort to sexuality as a means of validation (as Wurtzel writes) probably had distant parents, unloving/uninvolved fathers, mothers who never told them that they were valuable without the validation of a man proving their worth, etc etc.

So, I think the same type of thing goes into analyzing why a woman is submissive rather than suggesting "if she likes it, clearly it's okay." What if she just thinks she likes it because she wasn't socialized to believe anything different? Women who are assertive are looked at with scathing scrutiny and are widely considered to be pains in asses. Wurtzel does a great deal of work talking about how from Bible stories onward, women who go for what they want or show emotions are deemed conniving, immoral, impure, and ugly. Whereas women who are dutiful, obedient wives who never show sorrow are beautiful, pure, moral, and good. Women who are emotional (Lot's wife, looking back longingly at her homeland as she's leaving it, Wurtzel brings up), are punished (she's now a pillar of salt). Women who want power and have the means to extract it are never called beautiful and are regarded as bitches (the bad kind, not the good kind), such as Delilah in the whole Samson story (Wurtzels' chapter on the Bible essentially revolves around the Samson and Delilah dynamic, and I've come to the conclusion that Delilah is MY kind of Bitch).

There's a Tori Amos song called "God" out there. There's a quote from the Bible in it. "Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings." That always pissed me off. Why not? Delilah emasculates Samson, stealing his strength by cutting his hair. Wurzel also discusses "castration complex," where men feel that intercourse metaphorically (or maybe literally, who knows) "saps" them of their masculinity and power as they're being drained by women.

What the hell is so wrong with women getting power? And why the hell are so many women submissive? And of those, how many actually *want* to be submissive, and how many are doing it because they don't know what the hell else to do?

So that Bible quote is from a proverb, 31;3. I'll admit a couple things here: I'm pretty much an atheist, or perhaps a very willful agnostic. I want to believe in capital-g God, but I don't know if I can. Furthermore, I am really not a Christian, although I'm strangely attracted to Catholicism (virgin worship *and* pretty art? Fun). So, it should go without saying that I have not really read any Bible verses and am not educated too damn well with theology. I know that various interpretations of the Bible are out there. Some take it literally (Google/Wiki the Quiverfull people, and goddamn, see what I mean), and some believe the Bible teaches by parable and story. I believe the problem with teaching by parable is that people get wrapped up in the storytelling rather than the intended message (read the current issue of "Bitch" magazine for a great article about a woman who wrote a feminist guide to the Bible, called "Eve's Bible;" the author is Sarah S. Forth. She says there are TWO creation stories, and the one we have attached ourselves to has the better storytelling, so I felt that tidbit goes to prove my point that messages are hard to discern if they're wrapped up in pretty prose sometimes, especially if there are competing versions.)

So I did some of Ye Olde Googling, and found the "Give not thy strength..." to be used as a support in analysis of 1 Timothy, Chapter 2. I have provided all of this part of the Bible. There are some links within the text that I can't figure out how to remove. If you want to check on my accuracy of collecting the quotes, I got this all from HERE. I will bold all of the things that piss me off, accordingly:

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (Just men?)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (SHAMEFACEDNESS?)

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (Whut in the FAWK?)

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (The OTHER creation story, the one that appears FIRST in Genesis, says God made Adam and Eve at the same time. Seriously, read that article)

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (This is the whole apple eating thing. Don't even get me started, but there is a funny shirt I've seen that says "Eve Was Framed.")

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (To work off Eve's sins, you need to spread your legs, modestly, and do your holy duty of childbearing. Don't worry about being assertive or having a responsibility that belongs to a man. Woman, your lot in life, for having eaten the apple, is to bear the pains of childbirth.)

So, do women want to be submissive? Maybe some, but why? It's easier to avoid conflict, and pick your battles sometimes, no matter who you are. But what's the overriding need for a woman to back off toward men? Men fear women sapping their power. That's what Susan Faludi says in "Backlash," that's what the story of Delilah tells its readers, that's what every film that portrays an ambitious woman who goes for what she wants and ultimately causes her own downfall is saying. Women should not be assertive. It scares the men

I'm tired of being the type of person who can't be assertive because I look like a bitch when I do it. Bitches get shit done, to paraphrase Tina Fey during her monologue on Saturday Night Live a couple months ago. I'd rather get shit done and have everyone hate me than see everything crumble around me, keeping a sweet demeanor and having a boyfriend who opens doors for me.

But then again, I've never read any Bible stories that told me to do otherwise.